The Next "Bali?" (Time Magazine "Bali Suicide")

BKT

Sorry seems I got lost in translation when talking with grandma. "first sailed into Singaraja" I think she ment the first time she saw their boats in the harbor as a child. Her stories come with big smiles. I think the main reason she liked the dutch so much is because they didn't treat the chinese like second class citizens.

pollyanna

BKT wroteIts sad to say but the people here are too far gone. The only way you'll stop them from littering is to make laws regarding waste management. You dump rubbish in the street you get a fine, you dump rubbish in the rivers you get a fine.

That's exactly the same way littering was stopped in the U.S. and in Australia. I don't know about the rest of the world but a strong advertising campaign and fines for illegal rubbish disposal cleaned up the U.S. and Oz. From my limited knowledge the same thing is true in Singapore. It isn't that the Balinese are too far gone. It's that the government is ineffectual and apathetic. The same is true of the rabies epidemic. If it weren't for the amazing and hard working people at BAWA there probably wouldn't be dent in the epidemic. The government didn't step in until BAWA had raised worldwide awareness. And even now the government participation is guided by BAWA and other private interests.

gilbert de jong

chinese have been long time fliends of the netherlands...business,business,business :icon_wink: @ hermit..personally I think that the difference between the south and north of Bali has nothing to do with the dutch, but ratter with moving the capital city from singaraja to denpasar.

mugwump

[b]Mexico?[/b]

gilbert de jong wroteif I would choose to live anywhere else then Bali, it wouldn'tt be in Indonesia. maybe Manzanillo Mexico unspoiled by tourist and weatherwise comparable with Bali.

I used to love visiting Mexico, but can't imagine going there anymore. The drug cartels haven't created any safe havens that I have read about.

gilbert de jong

mugwump wroteI used to love visiting Mexico, but can't imagine going there anymore. The drug cartels haven't created any safe havens that I have read about.

it ain't that bad...as long as you stay away from the obvious places/towns where kidnapping/drugs/prostitution is lucrative for the criminals...still are some places to be found where they have not spread out too, or the street-chums stay away because the upper echelon lives there :icon_lol:

spicyayam

[QUOTE] personally I think that the difference between the south and north of Bali has nothing to do with the dutch, but ratter with moving the capital city from singaraja to denpasar [/QUOTE] Other than the traffic and congestion what do you think are the differences between the north and south?

hermit

[b]North and South[/b] [QUOTE][QUOTE] @ hermit..personally I think that the difference between the south and north of Bali has nothing to do with the dutch, but ratter with moving the capital city from singaraja to denpasar. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE] I was not talking about the traffic,but things like a more western style of building,walled compounds have disappeared in the north and the religious duties seem to be taken less serious there also.This was pointed out to me years ago by Bert Vierstra himself,as the reason why he felt more at ease in the north.On the whole you could say the north is more western-orientated than the south.

gilbert de jong

@hermit, sorry I missed your point...but Bert's not living here anymore he went back to NL via SriLanka if I remember right..will contact him later though. yeah the south is ofcourse more then Renon,DPS,Kuta etcetc, but you're going further south then the dutch ever went :icon_wink:...the dutch stopped in Denpasar. So they couldn't even have had an impact further south then DPS. "sort of"..meaning not all, and not totally just for turists...also for the economy behind all the ceremonies :icon_lol:...just joking (but partly true too)

gilbert de jong

hermit

@hermit, me neither, talking about the traffic that is ... the whole economical growth and western lifestyle is found in the south...not in the north, like you suggest. And this is not because of the dutch but because of making denpasar the ibukota of Bali..well at least imho. No pizza-huts,McDonalds,KFC, malls etcetc....in the north. Religious duties are far more 'serious' here in the north then in the south, where in the south it is more of a spectacle/show to please the turists (sort of). As for the walled compounds, if you're talking/meaning where the westerners life..yeah probably one would find more of that in the south then here in the north, becuase there are more westerners living in the south then in the north... @ Gilbert.Sorry,you completely missed my point,you seem to think all of the south of Bali is like Kuta and Denpasar. Walled compounds are the original way of balinese building.It has completely vanished in the north under influence of the dutch.Even in Ubud you can see what i mean with walled compounds. No way in the south religious duties are a show for tourists.In my desa there was a once-every-fifty-years ceremony last year,for wich one of the main roads and crossroads were closed off for trafic three month prior and one month after the ceremony.At the ceremony that lasted more than two weeks there was hardly any tourist to be seen. If Bert is still living up there,ask him what he meant to say about the difference.

kanginkauh

spicyayam wroteOther than the traffic and congestion what do you think are the differences between the north and south?

Balinese in the South of Bali regard the Balinese of the North (Buleleng) as less refined. Most Balinese there have little or no command of the higher Balinese language levels. They often start to talk in Bahasa Indonesia if they are confronted with a situation where high language is required, e.g. with a high priest (pedanda).

hermit

[b]What is South-Bali?[/b] [QUOTE]yeah the south is ofcourse more then Renon,DPS,Kuta etcetc, but you're going further south then the dutch ever went :icon_wink:...the dutch stopped in Denpasar. So they couldn't even have had an impact further south then DPS. [/QUOTE] Gilbert,South meaning everything south of the mountains.So,Badung,Gianyar,Bangli,Klungkung,Karangasem ,Tabanan,Jembrana. In each of these regencies the dutch had a civil servant for the daily government things(called Controleur).i am not sure what you mean by the dutch stopped in Denpasar.South of Denpasar is only the Bukit,wich at that time was just barren land with some little villages.

gilbert de jong

the regions you name in your last post... the dutch were just "passer-by's" so little to no influence in either buildingstyle nor in economical growth. (ofcourse the dutch had built several beautiful houses) But ok..you're right in one thing, the dutch had 'contoleurs', but he wasn't a civil servant... He was someone who was assigned to the local king and helped that king report to the dutch Resident. The Balinese still used their own laws and 'funny way' of structuring a government. Furthermore that controleur guided that king in making decissions like, who to hire for his administration... Back then as is now, children are the future and back then the Dutch brought education for children to Bali, one of the more famous ones is for example HIS where the royalties and rich kids went to school, it was no more then logical that these kids when grown up should have/get a position at the right 'seat'. this dutch controleur saw to that. But way of thread...sorry to the other members/readers. and sorry for misunderstanding your point again hermit :)

gilbert de jong

being half dutch half indonesian, with an indonesian mother borne in 1932 and grandmother born in 1907...yeah there are a thing or two I know about historical events :icon_wink:

hermit

[b]Ambtenaar bb[/b] th[QUOTE]e regions you name in your last post... the dutch were just "passer-by's" so little to no influence in either buildingstyle nor in economical growth. (ofcourse the dutch had built several beautiful houses) But ok..you're right in one thing, the dutch had 'contoleurs', but he wasn't a civil servant... He was someone who was assigned to the local king and helped that king report to the dutch Resident.[/QUOTE] Well Gilbert ,nice to see you are not completely devoid of historical knowledge. The dutch being passers-by in the south(from 1907 until 1945/1949)was exactly my point before ,as the dutch came to Buleleng in 1849 and that regio was therefore longer exposed to western influences.I think It was BKT that wrote how he was told by his maternal grandmother how the dutch teaced them how to build houses.(Not sure that was a blessing.) I think there is confusion about what a civil servant is,in dutch "Ambtenaar". ".Controleur's,assistent Resident's,Resident's and Goeverneur's were all part of the same local government-organisation headed by the Goeverneur-Generaal in Jakarta.In dutch:Binnenlands Bestuur.You are right about the advising task of the controleurs that were assigned a regency with a king,but the reporting was definitely done by the controleur.Some of these even became close friends with the local rulers and advised them about the education of their children.

tom

When comparing Bali/Indonesia as a destination to other spots in the world, a surfer has a little different perspective than most people. Bali in particular and Indonesia in general have such an abundance of surf and such good conditions that I think there are few places in the world that compare. I am guessing that Gilbert is a surfer since he brought up Manzanillo Mexico as an alternative to Bali. Mexico has attracted surfers for a long time. It is a beautiful country. I know someone that alternates between Indonesia in the dry season and Mainland Mexico the remainder of the year. Many others do the same between indonesia and Hawaii. Point being is that a surfers perspective has such an emphasis on surfing that it varies a bit from others. It is becoming much more difficult to find uncrowded surf these days. So surfers are going to more isolated areas and sacraficing comforts and luxeries for less crowded surf. And finding some very nice places in the process. If you want to find about alternatives to Bali I would think the surfing community may be a good place to look. Ofcourse they may be reluctant to give any specifics.

Markit

Same ol - same ol... [ATTACH]2314.vB[/ATTACH]

MiSO

Sooo… how is Bali doing since 2011? More buildings, traffic and pollution? Still not down by its success? Different sceneries (nature wise) on the island and its culture, make Bali special and intense. Somehow I don't think it will go down, it will just attract different kind of people. E.g. in the Gulf of Thailand nowadays attracts less Europeans, but more Russians, Israeli and Chinese (in their 20's-40's) Quite a lot Westerners I've know left Thailand for other destinations. My "next Bali" should had been Costa Rico/Belize/Mexico, the Caribbean is great. The Philippines too, but natural disasters are not-so-great. But I appreciate South of Europe a lot after Asia, and Gulf of Thailand is not so bad either ;-) I guess home is where the heart is. But still, the ocean in the Caribbean cannot be compared with Gulf of Thailand or Bali. The diving, the surfing… so much better over there. Bali 2014: Are you still having the same view you had in 2011, or blocked by a new building in 2014? ;-)

davita

Although Gilbert's post about liking Mexico is old, and he clearly didn't move there, Gurkha's comment is appropriate. In 1990 we retired to Vancouver, Canada...but the winters there are miserable so we looked for a vacation 2nd home. Mexico was the first step in that project but I agree with Gurkha...because at that time (around 1995), the place was abject poverty, corrupt, violent. Yet, around Lake Chapala (Ajijic near Guadalahara) it was very pleasent...except the lake, the biggest in Mexico, was slowly being drained by the need for water. Villas on the lake were at least 1 k from where the original shoreline was. We rejected as a holiday home as the crime was also intense...villas were being burgled almost nightly and expats (mainly Canadians) were selling and moving elsewhere....mainly to Panama or Costa Rica. I don't know what Ajijic is like today.....maybe worth a 2nd looksee.

MiSO

Markit wroteSame ol - same ol... [ATTACH=CONFIG]2314[/ATTACH]

Some guys have all the luck ...

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